Overview

This document lists the sizing guidelines for Cisco Identity Services Engine (Cisco ISE).

Change history

This table lists changes to this document since its initial release.

Date

Change

Location

2025-09-24

Updated Workload Connector scaling details for Cisco SNS 3815

Cisco ISE Workload Connector scaling

Updated maximum concurrent active sessions for Cisco ISE 3.5

Sizing guidelines for Cisco ISE deployment

Updated TACACS+ performance details

Updated list of supported AWS instance types

Cisco ISE virtual machine and cloud platforms

2025-07-15

Added scaling details for Cisco SNS 3800 appliances

2025-04-04

Added best practices for optimized performance

Cisco ISE pxGrid Direct scaling

2025-03-27

Added information about the maximum number of validated endpoints in the Cisco ISE database.

Cisco ISE deployment scale limits

2024-12-16

Added Workload Connector scaling details for Cisco ACI connections

Cisco ISE and Cisco Application Centric Infrastructure scaling

Added Workload Connector scaling details for Azure, AWS, GCP, and vCenter connections

Cisco ISE Workload Connector scaling

Cisco ISE node terminology

A Cisco ISE node provides various services based on the persona that it assumes. The Admin portal displays menu options based on the node's role and persona.

Table 1. Types of Cisco ISE nodes

Node type

Description

Policy Administration Node (PAN)

A Cisco ISE node with the Administration persona allows you to perform all administrative operations and configurations. It serves as a centralized interface for viewing all administrative activities and contextual data. The node synchronizes its configuration with other nodes in the deployment.

Policy Service Node (PSN)

A Cisco ISE node with the Policy Service persona provides network access, posture, guest access, client provisioning, and profiling services. This persona evaluates the policies and makes all the decisions.

Monitoring Node (MnT)

A Cisco ISE node with the Monitoring persona collects and stores log messages from all Administration and Policy Service nodes. It provides advanced monitoring and troubleshooting tools for effective network and resource management. The node aggregates and correlates collected data to generate meaningful reports.

pxGrid node

You can use Cisco pxGrid to share context-sensitive information from Cisco ISE session directory with other network systems such as Cisco ISE ecosystem partner systems and other Cisco platforms. The pxGrid framework can also be used to exchange policy and configuration data between nodes (such as sharing tags and policy objects between Cisco ISE and third-party vendors) and for other information exchanges.

Cisco ISE deployments

A deployment is one or more Cisco ISE nodes connected together in a cluster (distributed system).

A deployment that has a single Cisco ISE node is called a standalone deployment. This node runs all the personas. Standalone deployment is not recommended for production because redundancy is not provided.

A distributed deployment consists of more than one Cisco ISE node. In this configuration, multiple nodes are set up to improve performance and provide failover support. Administration and monitoring are centralized, while processing is distributed across the Policy Service nodes. You can scale your deployment to meet your performance requirements.

This table lists the types of Cisco ISE deployment.

Table 2. Types of Cisco ISE deployments

Standalone

Small deployment

Medium deployment

Large deployment

Evaluation Deployment in Cisco ISE
  • All ISE personas (PAN + MnT + PSN + pxGrid) on the same appliance or VM instance.

  • Not recommended for production.

Small Deployments in Cisco ISE
  • All ISE personas (PAN, MnT, PSN, and pxGrid) on the same appliance or VM instances.

  • Two-node deployment. One node as primary and the other node as secondary for redundancy.

  • An additional node can be added (which is optional) to a small deployment as a PSN, pxGrid, or Health Check node. The additional node can be a combination of any of these personas:

    Dedicated PSNDedicated PSN

    pxGrid nodepxGrid node

    Health Check nodeHealth Check node

    Note

     

    Adding an extra node with a PSN, pxGrid, or Health Check persona does not alter the existing scale limits of the small deployment. We recommend that you use the additional node only for load sharing purposes.

Medium Deployments in Cisco ISE
  • PAN, MnT, and pxGrid run on the same node.

  • One node serves as primary, and the other serves as secondary to provide redundancy.

  • PSNs run on dedicated nodes.

  • The nodes can be appliances or equivalent VMs.

  • Supports up to six PSNs. You can also enable the pxGrid persona on any PSN or add up to two dedicated pxGrid nodes to the deployment

  • The maximum supported configuration includes eight nodes: two nodes running PAN/MnT/pxGrid and six PSNs, or two nodes running PAN/MnT, four PSNs, and two pxGrid/SXP nodes.

Large Deployments in Cisco ISE
  • Two PAN nodes, two MnT nodes, pxGrid nodes, and PSNs each run on dedicated nodes.

  • Nodes can be appliances or equivalent VMs.

  • Supports up to four pxGrid nodes.

  • Supports up to 50 PSNs

  • The configuration supports a maximum of 58 nodes: two PAN nodes, two MnT nodes, fifty PSNs, and four pxGrid nodes.

Sizing guidelines for Cisco ISE deployment

You can choose the right ISE deployment by considering the maximum scale numbers for active endpoints in each deployment type, the scale supported by individual PSN nodes, and other relevant factors described in this section.

Each endpoint with a unique MAC address counts as one active session. Concurrent active sessions are supported for all types of sessions, including Dot1x, MAB, Guest, BYOD, and Posture.

The maximum number of active sessions shown in this table was determined by tests performed under these conditions:

  • Cisco ISE deployments are formed in a single data center deployed in same region, low latency (less than 5 ms) between the ISE internode communications, Dot1x authentications and accounting events generated by endpoints in the range of two to four repetitions per day.

  • The majority of the sessions use RADIUS protocols to authenticate with local ID providers.

ISE deployment scale

These tables show the maximum concurrent active sessions for deployments with different SNS appliances acting as PAN, MnT, or PAN/MnT.

Table 3. Maximum concurrent active sessions for Cisco ISE 3.4 and earlier releases
Deployment Cisco SNS 3595 Cisco SNS 3615 Cisco SNS 3715, 3815 Cisco SNS 3655 Cisco SNS 3755, 3855 Cisco SNS 3695 Cisco SNS 3795, 3895
Large 500,000 Unsupported Unsupported 500,000 750,000 2,000,000 2,000,000
Medium 20,000 12,500 75,000 25,000 150,000 50,000 150,000
Small 20,000 12,500 25,000 25,000 50,000 50,000 50,000
Table 4. Maximum concurrent active sessions for Cisco ISE 3.5 and later releases
Deployment Cisco SNS 3615 Cisco SNS 3715 Cisco SNS 3815 Cisco SNS 3655 Cisco SNS 3755, 3855 Cisco SNS 3695 Cisco SNS 3795, 3895
Large Unsupported Unsupported Unsupported 500,000 750,000 2,000,000 2,000,000
Medium Unsupported Unsupported 75,000 25,000 150,000 50,000 150,000
Small 12,500 25,000 25,000 25,000 50,000 50,000 50,000

Note


  • Cisco SNS 3815, Cisco SNS 3855, and Cisco SNS 3895 are supported from Cisco ISE 3.3 patch 7 onwards.

  • Cisco SNS 3595 is supported only for Cisco ISE 3.2 and earlier releases.

  • Small or medium deployments with 32 GB memory instances (Cisco SNS 3615 or Cisco SNS 3715) acting as PAN/MnT are recommended for RADIUS-only or TACACS+-only workloads. For deployments that need both RADIUS and TACACS+ at scale, use Cisco ISE nodes with higher resources, such as Cisco SNS 3655 or newer models. Advanced features such as AI/ML Profiling, Cisco ACI Integration, Workload Connectors, Monitoring, and Log Analytics (under System 360) require more resources. Enable these features only on Cisco SNS 3815, 3655, 3755, 3855, 3695, 3795, or 3895 for optimal performance.


Policy Service Node scale

Table 5. Maximum concurrent active sessions for different ISE appliances acting as PSNs
PSN Type Cisco SNS 3595 Cisco SNS 3615 Cisco SNS 3715, 3815 Cisco SNS 3655 Cisco SNS 3755, 3855 Cisco SNS 3695 Cisco SNS 3795, 3895*
Dedicated PSN (Cisco ISE node has only PSN persona) 40,000 25,000 50,000 50,000 100,000 100,000 100,000
Shared PSN (Cisco ISE node has multiple personas) 20,000 12,500 25,000 25,000 50,000 50,000 50,000

*Cisco SNS 3795 and Cisco SNS 3895 are equipped with more RAM and better Disk Read/Write performance. These models are best suited for dedicated PAN, dedicated MnT, or PAN/MnT personas and provide no added value when deployed as a dedicated PSN.


Note


SNS 3595 is supported in Cisco ISE release 3.2 and earlier versions.


Deployment selection criteria

Consider these points when selecting a deployment:

  • You can choose small deployment for up to 50,000 concurrent active sessions and medium deployment for up to 150,000 concurrent active sessions.

  • For deployments with more than 150,000 concurrent active sessions, a large deployment is required. Register MnT nodes as Dedicated MnT nodes in large deployments.

  • Deploy PSNs closer to workloads and Identity Providers (such as AD, LDAP) for performance-sensitive loads.

  • Group PSNs for similar workloads, such as RADIUS Dot1x, Guest, BYOD, or TACACS+, and distribute traffic through load balancers.

  • For better performance, configure Calling-Station-ID (MAC)-based stickiness in the load balancer.

  • Configure PSNs in node groups if you use services that require URL redirect, such as posture services, guest services, or MDM.

  • Have multiple data centers, and group PSNs per datacenter. Configure RADIUS (primary, secondary, tertiary) failover on NAS devices. For example, if the primary data center (DC-A) fails, 50 percent of NADs can fail over to the secondary data center (DC-B), and the remaining NADs can fail over to the tertiary data center (DC-C).

  • Implement N+1 or N+2 redundancy within a PSN group.

  • Purge guest and inactive endpoints at regular intervals to prevent latency in ISE operations.

  • The maximum concurrent active session values given for each deployment are applicable for connected devices that are generating dot1x authentications up to 4 times a day.

  • For deployments where endpoints generate repeated authentication and accounting events, additional PSNs in the PSN group are required to handle heavy traffic scenarios such as simultaneous login events from a large number of users or Wi-Fi users roaming from one location to another.

  • PSN node variations include TACACS+ PSN, TC-NAC PSN, Guest PSN (GPSN), Cisco TrustSec PSN, Security Group eXchange Protocol PSN, and PassiveID PSN. For better performance, reserve TACACS+, RADIUS, Guest, BYOD workloads to dedicated PSN groups within a deployment.

  • Assign separate Cisco TrustSec PSNs to handle TrustSec functions in TrustSec deployments. This prevents overloading RADIUS PSNs when pushing policies.

  • For large-scale NAC environments with many Device Administration tasks, such as frequent script usage or network management systems, split deployments and use a separate deployment for Device Administration (TACACS+).

RADIUS authentication rates

This table shows the authentication rates for RADIUS protocols when a Cisco ISE node acts as a single dedicated PSN in a deployment.

Table 6. RADIUS transactions per second (TPS) for a dedicated PSN node
Authentication method Cisco SNS 3615, 3715, 3815 Cisco SNS 3595 Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, 3695, 3795, 3855, 3895
PAP with internal user database 900 1100 1300
PAP with Active Directory 250 250 300
PAP with LDAP directory 300 300 350
PEAP (MSCHAPv2) with internal user database 150 150 200
PEAP (MSCHAPv2) with Active Directory 150 150 175
PEAP (GTC) with internal user database 150 150 250
PEAP (GTC) with Active Directory 100 150 175
EAP-FAST (MSCHAPv2) with internal user database 350 400 500
EAP-FAST (MSCHAPv2) with Active Directory 200 250 300
EAP-FAST (GTC) with internal user database 350 400 450
EAP-FAST (GTC) with Active Directory 200 200 300
EAP-FAST (GTC) with LDAP directory 200 300 300
EAP-TLS with internal user database 150 150 200
EAP-TLS with Active Directory 150 150 200
EAP-TLS with LDAP directory 150 200 200
EAP TEAP with internal user database 100 100 200
MAB with internal user database 500 900 1000
MAB with LDAP directory 400 500 600
EAP-TTLS PAP with Microsoft Entra ID

30

30

50

EAP-TLS with Microsoft Entra ID

40

40

50


Note


  • To check RADIUS authentication rates for a specific time period, choose Operations > System 360 > Log Analytics. If Log Analytics is not enabled, use the external syslog receivers or download the iseLocalStore logs to verify the incoming authentication rates for a specific time period.

  • EAP-TLS authentication rates for Microsoft Entra ID apply to Cisco ISE release 3.2 patch 3 and later, and Cisco ISE release 3.3 and later.

  • EAP-TTLS PAP authentication rates for Microsoft Entra ID apply to Cisco ISE release 3.3 and later.

  • When DTLS is enabled, RADIUS TPS might show around 15 percent reduction in the authentication rates compared to the values in Table 5.


TACACS+ network devices scaling

This table shows the maximum network device entries in Admin > Network Resources > Network Devices for deployments with different SNS appliances acting as shared or dedicated PAN.

Table 7. Maximum network device entries in Admin > Network Resources > Network Devices page

Deployment

Cisco SNS 3615, 3715

Cisco SNS 3815

Cisco SNS 3655, 3755

Cisco SNS 3855

Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, 3895

Large

Unsupported

Unsupported

50,000

100,000

200,000

Medium

2500

5000

25,000

50,000

50,000

Small

1000

2500

10,000

10,000

10,000


Note


  • Each network device entry can have a single /32 IP address, a subnet, or an IP address range.

  • Up to 300,000 NADs are supported when using IP segments.

    • Each entry can be a unicast IP address, a subnet in CIDR notation, or an IP range specified as IP1,IP2.

    • The maximum supported entries in a large deployment are 200,000, while individual NADs within that range can support up to 300,000 entries.

    • Consolidating contiguous or unified IP addresses into subnets is an effective way to reduce configuration complexity and enhance manageability.

  • The application restart time across all deployment nodes increases exponentially as the number of network device entries in the database grows. For example, restarting the application takes 50 minutes with 100,000 network device entries, and 150 minutes with 200,000 entries. See CSCwp87729 for more details.


TACACS+ performance for Policy Service Node

This table shows the maximum TACACS+ TPS processed by dedicated PSNs, including authentication, authorization, or accounting events.

These values are measured per dedicated PSN for PAP and CHAP protocols and apply to both TACACS+ Single Connect and non-Single Connect modes.

Table 8. Maximum TACACS+ TPS for different SNS appliances acting as dedicated TACACS+ only PSNs

Scenario

Cisco SNS 3595, 3615, 3715

Cisco SNS 3655, 3695, 3815

Cisco SNS 3755, 3795, 3855, 3895

TACACS+ AAA events with internal identity store

2500

3000

3200

TACACS+ AAA events with external identity store (AD/LDAP)

2000

2400

2500

TACACS+ TLS 1.3 AAA events with internal identity store

800

1000

1500

TACACS+ TLS 1.3 AAA events with external identity store (AD/LDAP)

640

800

1200


Note


  • TACACS+ over TLS 1.3 is supported starting from Cisco ISE 3.4 patch 2. Establishing the TLS tunnel and verifying the NAD certificate involve intensive cryptographic operations compared to standard TCP communications. Consequently, TLS authentication incurs higher overhead, resulting in lower TPS rates than non-TLS connections.

  • Ensure that the latency between Cisco ISE and Active Directory/LDAP is maintained at 5 ms or less. Each 5 ms increase in latency can significantly impact authentication response times, potentially causing timeouts and reducing TPS by up to 50%. For example, Cisco ISE 3615 can sustain 1000 TPS without timeouts at 10 ms latency. However, performance decreases to approximately 500 TPS when latency reaches 15 ms, with further reductions as latency increases.

  • Automate TACACS+ logins and device command execution using scripts to ensure the total authentication load remains within the specified limits.

  • When a PSN is configured to handle both RADIUS and TACACS+ events, its RADIUS performance is limited to 25% of the values shown in Table 5. For example, if the SNS-3795 supports 200 RADIUS (PEAP-MSCHAPv2) requests per second with an internal user database in a dedicated RADIUS-only deployment, it can process up to 50 RADIUS requests per second when TACACS+ is enabled on the same node.

  • To view the TACACS+ authentication rates for a specific time period, choose Operations > System 360 > Log Analytics.

    If Log Analytics is not enabled

    • use external syslog receivers configured to collect data from these logging categories: AAA Audit > Passed Authentications, AAA Audit > Failed Attempts, and Accounting > TACACS+ Accounting, or

    • use the show logging application collector-stats.log tail command in the ISE admin shell to retrieve the statistics.


TACACS+ performance in Cisco ISE deployment

The MnT nodes process the events from all PSNs and are essential for managing operational data effectively.

In deployments where real-time monitoring of MnT live logs is critical and any latency in live logs or reporting is unacceptable, performance must be governed based on deployment-wide transactions per second, as detailed in this section.

Table 9. Maximum TACACS+ TPS for deployments with different SNS appliances acting as shared or dedicated MnT node

Deployment

Cisco SNS 3615, 3715

Cisco SNS 3815

Cisco SNS 3655, 3755

Cisco SNS 3695, 3855

Cisco SNS 3795, 3895

Large (dedicated MnT)

Unsupported Unsupported 1500 2000 2500

Medium (MnT shared with PAN persona)

50 100 700 1000 1250

Small (all persona)

50 100 150 250 300

Note


  • To ensure stable operation and optimal performance of monitoring, live log viewing, and reporting throughout the Cisco ISE deployment, it is recommended to keep the incoming TACACS+ authentication rates within the specified limits.

    Exceeding these limits may lead to performance degradation in MnT operations, including Live Logs, Reports, and other monitoring functions.

  • Due to the significant enhancements made to the MnT logging capabilities, we recommend using Cisco ISE release 3.4 or later for real-time monitoring of TACACS+ MnT logs to ensure optimal performance and functionality.

  • The maximum TACACS+ scale is determined by the lesser of two factors: the processing capacity of the MnT node, which handles all TACACS+ messages from every PSN in the deployment, and the combined capacity of all individual PSNs managing TACACS+ traffic.

  • If an external logging system such as Splunk is used to offload the MnT node from processing all TACACS+ logs, the overall maximum performance is determined by the combined maximum capacity of each PSN in the deployment.


Scenario-specific authentication rates

This table shows the transactions per second (TPS) when Cisco ISE node is acting as a single dedicated PSN in a deployment for different scenarios.

The authentication values provided in this table may have + or - 5 percent deviation in production environment.

Table 10. Scenario-based authentications per second for a dedicated PSN
Scenario Cisco SNS 3615, 3715, 3815 Cisco SNS 3595 Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, 3695, 3795, 3855, 3895
Posture authentication 50 50 60
Guest Hotspot authentication 75 100 150
Guest Sponsored authentication 50 75 75
BYOD Onboarding single SSID 10 10 15
BYOD Onboarding dual SSID 10 15 15
MDM 150 200 350
Internal CA certificate issuance 50 50 50
New endpoints profiled per second/profile updates per second 200 250 250
Maximum PassiveID sessions processed per second 1000 1000 1000

Sessions published per second to pxGrid subscribers

300 400 400

RADIUS VPN flow with Duo MFA

10

N/A

40

TACACS+ flow with Duo MFA

20

N/A

20


Note


Cisco ISE integration with Duo MFA for RADIUS and TACACS+ flows is applicable from Cisco ISE 3.3 Patch 1 onwards. The authentication rates are applicable to deployments, where the latency between Cisco ISE and Duo is 4 or 5 seconds.


Table 11. Time taken to perform various operations in seconds
Scenario Cisco SNS 3615, 3715, 3815 Cisco SNS 3595 Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, 3695, 3795, 3855, 3895
Time taken to push 300 TrustSec policies to 254 NADs 50 50 50
Time taken for 5000 TrustSec policies to download 2GB data via REST API 50 50 50
Time taken to connect SXP to SXPSN 10 5 5
Time taken for ERS Endpoints Bulk API for 1000 endpoints 15 10 10
Time taken for ERS Guest Bulk API for 1000 endpoints 15 10 10
Time taken for ERS: Trustsec Bulk API for 1000 endpoints 200 200 100

Time taken for pxGrid ANC APIs to quarantine or unquarantine 10,000 endpoints (with 100 requests per second)

120

120

120

Cisco ISE deployment scale limits

Table 12. Deployment scale limits
Attribute Maximum limit
Maximum pxGrid nodes in Large or Dedicated deployment 4
Maximum pxGrid subscribers per pxGrid node

Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, or 3895 as dedicated/shared pxGrid node: 200

Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, or 3855 as dedicated/shared pxGrid node: 50

Cisco SNS 3615, 3715, or 3815 as dedicated/shared pxGrid node: 5

Dedicated PSN with SXP service enabled 8 nodes, or 4 pairs
Maximum ISE SXP peers per PSN with SXP service enabled 200
Maximum network device entries* See TACACS+ network devices scaling
Maximum network device groups (NDG) 10,000
Maximum Active Directory forests (Join Points) 50
Maximum Active Directory controllers (WMI query) 100
Maximum internal users 300,000
Maximum internal guests** 1,000,000
Maximum user certificates 1,000,000
Maximum server certificates 1,000
Maximum trusted certificates 1,000
Maximum concurrent active endpoints/sessions

Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, or 3895 as dedicated PAN or MnT: 2,000,000

Refer to Sizing guidelines for Cisco ISE deployment for other appliance combinations

Maximum validated endpoints in the Cisco ISE database (including both active and inactive endpoints)***

Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, or 3895 as dedicated/shared PAN: 4,000,000

Cisco SNS 3655 as dedicated/shared PAN: 1,000,000

Cisco SNS 3755 or 3855 as dedicated/shared PAN: 1,500,000

Cisco SNS 3715 or 3815 as shared PAN: 50,000

Cisco SNS 3615 as shared PAN: 25,000

Maximum policy sets 200
Maximum authorization rules****

3000

(3,200 authorization profiles)

Maximum authentication rules 1000
Maximum attribute-value (AV) pairs 64
Maximum user identity groups 1,000
Maximum endpoint identity groups 1,000
TrustSec Security Group Tags (SGTs)

TrustSec SGTs on Cisco SNS 3655/3755 and later models from Cisco ISE release 3.4 patch 1 onwards

10,000

50,000

TrustSec Security Group ACLs (SGACLs) 1,000
TrustSec IP-SGT Static Bindings (over SSH) 10,000
Maximum concurrent REST API connections

ERS API: 100

OpenAPI: 150

Maximum PassiveID sessions for Large deployment

Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, or 3895 as PAN, MnT: 2,000,000

Cisco SNS 3595 as PAN, MnT: 500,000

Cisco SNS 3655 as PAN, MnT: 500,000

Cisco SNS 3755 or 3855 as PAN, MnT: 750,000

Maximum network latency between primary PAN and any other

Cisco ISE node including the secondary PAN, MnT, and PSNs

300 milliseconds

Maximum IPSec tunnels per dedicated PSN

150

Maximum PassiveID sessions providers

Maximum AD Domain Controllers

Maximum REST API Providers

Maximum Syslog Providers

100

50

70

MnT API Performance

MnT API requests per second in Medium deployment

Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, or 3855: 10

Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, or 3895: 200

MnT API requests per second for Large deployment

Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, or 3855: 100

Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, or 3895: 400

Time taken by MnT API to download 200,000 endpoints in Medium and Large deployments

40 seconds

**Having more than 500,000 guest users might create latency in user authentication.

***Sample use case: Cisco SNS 3795 can support a maximum of 2,000,000 active endpoints/sessions (as stated in Sizing guidelines for Cisco ISE deployment). In addition, it can handle a maximum of 2,000,000 inactive endpoints, resulting in a total of 4,000,000 endpoints in the Cisco ISE database for large deployments. For medium deployments, it can handle up to 150,000 active endpoints/sessions and 3,850,000 inactive endpoints. For small deployments it can handle up to 50,000 active endpoints/sessions and 3,950,000 inactive endpoints.

****It is not recommended to have more than 600 authorization rules in a single policy set. Increasing the number of conditions per authorization rule might impact the performance.

Cisco ISE SXP scaling

Table 13. SXP scaling for different deployments

Deployment Type

Platform

Max PSNs

Max ISE SXP bindings

Max ISE SXP Listener peers

Standalone (all personas on same node)

2 nodes redundant

3595 0 20,000 30
3615 0 12,500 30
3655, 3715, 3815 0 25,000 40
3695, 3755, 3795, 3855, 3895 0 50,000 50
Unified PAN+MnT on same node and dedicated PSNs 3595 as PAN and MnT 6 20,000 200
3655 as PAN and MnT 6 25,000 200
3695 as PAN and MnT 6 50,000 200
3715 or 3815 as PAN and MnT 6 75,000 200
3755,3795, 3855, or 3895 as PAN and MnT 6 150,000 200
Dedicated (all personas on dedicated nodes) 3595 as PAN and MnT 50

350,000 (1 pair)

500,000 (2 pairs)

200 (1 pair)

400 (2 pairs)

3655 as PAN and MnT 50

350,000 (1 pair)

500,000 (2 pairs)

200 (1 pair)

400 (2 pairs)

3695, 3755, 3795, 3855, or 3895 as PAN and Large MnT 50

350,000 (1 pair)

700,000 (2 pairs)

1,050,000 (3 pairs)

1,400,000 (4 pairs)

200 (1 pair)

400 (2 pairs)

600 (3 pairs)

800 (4 pairs)

Cisco ISE pxGrid Direct scaling

This section specifies the time taken for Cisco ISE pxGrid Direct connector integration via URL Fetcher and URL Pusher for different scales of endpoints.

Table 14. Cisco ISE pxGrid Direct connector integration via URL Fetcher

Scenario

Cisco ISE 3.2 Patch 2/3.3

Cisco ISE 3.4 and later

Time taken in minutes to download and replicate 500,000 endpoints with total data size of 500 MB from configuration management database (CMDB) server to all PSN nodes

120

20

Time taken in minutes to download and replicate 1,000,000 endpoints with total data size of 1 GB from CMDB server to all PSN nodes

360

30

Time taken in minutes to download and replicate 2,000,000 endpoints with total data size of 2 GB from CMDB server to all PSN nodes

480

60


Note


  • These values are applicable only when the network latency between Cisco ISE and CMDB is less than 50 milliseconds.

  • This data is applicable for endpoints with 15 attributes each.

  • Data size for each endpoint with its attributes should not exceed 5 GB.

  • Timeout for Full Sync download is 120 minutes.

  • It is highly recommended to schedule synchronization during off-peak hours.

  • Cisco ISE can fetch data from 5 connectors simultaneously.


Table 15. Cisco ISE pxGrid Direct connector integration via URL Pusher

Scenario

Time in minutes

Time taken to download and replicate 500,000 endpoints data to all PSN nodes

30

The data presented in this table is based on these conditions:

  • Number of requests: 1

  • Endpoints per request: 10,000

  • Attributes per endpoint: 17

  • Total payload: <= 5 MB

  • Inter-request delay: 30 seconds between each request

Best practices for optimized performance

  • Ensure that the total request payload size is not more than 5 MB. You might see this error when this limit is exceeded:

    "Response: Size limit exceeded 5 MB, Bad Request"

  • It is recommended to maintain a 30-second delay between each request. Insufficient delay between requests may lead to rate-limiting errors (for example, "Response: Too Many Requests").

  • Monitor response errors and adjust payload size and request frequency accordingly.


Note


  • The URL Pusher data is applicable only from Cisco ISE release 3.4.

  • It is recommended to schedule large synchronization tasks during off-peak hours.

  • pxGrid Direct URL Pusher supports only two concurrent connections.


Cisco ISE and Cisco Application Centric Infrastructure scaling

The context learned from Cisco Application Centric Infrastructure (Cisco ACI) can be shared with Cisco Catalyst Center, network devices, SD-WAN components, and any other pxGrid subscribers. This section describes the scale and performance limits when Cisco ISE is integrated with Cisco ACI.

This table describes supported Cisco ACI cluster scale for different Cisco ISE clusters and maximum SXP bindings supported for respective deployments.

Table 16. Cisco ISE and Cisco ACI scale
Deployment type Maximum ACI clusters Maximum SXP bindings
Small deployment with Cisco SNS 3615 or 3715 as PAN or MnT 3 For lab purposes only
Small deployment with Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, 3695, 3795, 3815, 3855, or 3895 as PAN or MnT 3 40,000
Medium deployment with Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, 3855 or Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, 3895 as PAN and MnT 10 200,000
Large deployments with Cisco SNS 3655 or 3755 as PAN and MnT 20 400,000
Large deployments with Cisco SNS 3695 or 3795 as PAN and MnT 75 1,400,000

Note these points while integrating Cisco ISE with Cisco ACI:

  • It is recommended to integrate scaled ACI Fabric during off-peak hours. If the RADIUS traffic rate is high in the Cisco ISE deployment, TrustSec traffic enforcement might be delayed.

  • Maximum SXP binding values specified in this table are applicable for both deployments using only IPv4 addresses and deployments using a combination of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses.

  • Time taken for an ACI connection with 20,000 to 32,000 endpoints to reach the Connected state can be up to 5 minutes and time taken to download the bindings can be up to 10 minutes.

  • The initial time taken to download EPG endpoints or create SXP bindings can increase if the overall load on the Cisco ISE system is increased.

  • The total number of SXP bindings in the Cisco ISE deployment must not exceed 1,400,000. This count includes:

    • SXP bindings created by SGT assignment in authorization policies for RADIUS workload

    • SXP bindings received from SXP speakers

    • SXP bindings from IP-EPG mappings learned from Cisco ACI or SXP bindings created for workloads from all the Workload Connections

    • SXP bindings created by evaluating the Inbound SGT Domain rules

    • SXP bindings created by the Workload Classification rules

These are few examples for calculating the number of Cisco ACI connections that can be integrated with Cisco ISE based on scale:

Example 1

If the total number of SXP bindings created by SGT assignment in an authorization policy for RADIUS workload is 1,000,000, the total number of ACI connections that can be created is:

  • If each ACI Fabric has 20,000 endpoints to be shared with Cisco ISE, total number of ACI Fabrics that can be integrated = (1,400,000-1,000,000) / 20,000 = 20

  • If each ACI Fabric has 32,000 endpoints to be shared with Cisco ISE, total number of ACI connections that can be integrated = (1,400,000-1,000,000) / 32,000 = 12 or 13

Example 2

If the total number of SXP bindings created by SGT assignment in an authorization policy for RADIUS workload is 50,000, the total number of ACI connections that can be created is:

  • If each ACI Fabric has 20,000 endpoints to be shared with Cisco ISE, the total number of ACI connections that can be integrated = (1,400,000-50,000) / 20,000 = 67 or 68

  • If each ACI Fabric has 32,000 endpoints to be shared with Cisco ISE, the total number of ACI connections that can be integrated = (1,400,000-50,000) / 32000 = 42

Example 3

In a small deployment with Cisco SNS 3655/3755/3695/3795 as PAN/MnT, if the:

  • Total number of SXP bindings created by SGT assignment in an authorization policy for RADIUS workload is 10,000

  • Total SXP bindings for this deployment is 40,000

  • Total ACI Connections is 3

Maximum endpoints per ACI connection = (Total SXP bindings in deployment - Total SXP bindings)/Number of connectors for deployment = (40,000-10,000)/3 = 10,000

Cisco ISE Workload Connector scaling

From Cisco ISE release 3.4 patch 1, Cisco ISE can be integrated with these Workload Connectors, in addition to Cisco ACI:

  • AWS

  • Azure

  • GCP

  • vCenter

Table 17. Cisco ISE Workload Connector scaling for Azure, AWS, GCP, and vCenter connections
Deployment type Platform Maximum Workload Connectors* Maximum Workload SGT bindings
Small Cisco SNS 3615, 3715, 3815 1 For lab purposes only
Cisco SNS 3815, Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, 3855, or Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, 3895 3 10,000
Medium Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, 3855 or Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, 3895 10 20,000
Large Cisco SNS 3655, 3755, 3855 40 20,000
Cisco SNS 3695, 3795, 3895 50 20,000

*This could be a combination of different workload connections like AWS, GCP, Azure, and vCenter, or of same type. For example, if the maximum workload connection value is specified as 10, this deployment can include 3 GCP connections, 4 AWS connections, and 3 Azure connections, or 10 Azure connections.

Deployment requirements while integrating Cisco ISE with Cisco ACI and Workload Connectors

  • Small or medium deployments with Cisco SNS 3615 or 3715 acting as PAN/MnT are not recommended for production use.

  • Instances of the SXP persona must be configured as dedicated nodes for optimal performance in Medium and Large deployments.

  • When Inbound SGT domain rules are configured, additional SXP bindings might be created for specific endpoints.

  • While creating the Outbound SGT Domain rules, ensure that the maximum number of SGTs from all the rules and filters does not exceed 500. For example, if there are 5 Outbound SGT Domain rules, the number of SGTs per rule can be up to 100. It is recommended to have less than 10 Outbound SGT Domain rules in a deployment.

  • The maximum number of SXP bindings includes:

    • SXP bindings created by SGT assignment in authorization policies for RADIUS workload

    • SXP bindings received from SXP speakers

    • Static IP-SGT bindings

    • SXP bindings from IP-EPG mappings learned from Cisco ACI or SXP bindings created for workloads from all the Workload Connections

    • SXP bindings created by evaluating the Inbound SGT domain rules

    • SXP bindings created by the Workload Classification rules

  • It is strongly recommended to add scaled workload connections to Cisco ISE during the off-peak hours. If the RADIUS traffic rate is high in the Cisco ISE deployment, SXP binding creation might be delayed.

Configuration best practices

This section lists the best practices recommended while configuring the network devices and Cisco ISE for better performance.​​

Some of the factors that affect authentications are​:​

  • Network adapter disconnecting or reconnecting and leading to new authentication process​

  • Network switches configured with very less session time

  • Network switches configured with frequent accounting interim updates

  • Power outages

  • Automated scripts requiring mass reboot of systems

These events result in new authentication (Access-Request), accounting-interim update, or accounting stops.

Table 18. Configuration best practices for Cisco ISE

Attribute

Recommendation

Profiling probes

If you are not using the profiling feature, turn off all the profiling probes.

Endpoint Attribute filter ​

This filter is disabled by default. We recommend that you enable this filter. ​

MnT suppression

Ensure that the Suppress Repeated Passed and Failed Clients option in the RADIUS Settings page is enabled.

This option is enabled by default.

EAP-FAST reconnect and session resume ​

Enable this option in the Policy > Results > Allowed Protocols > Allow EAP-FAST page.

This helps client devices to reduce the load on Cisco ISE for EAP. In case of BYOD flow where remote management of client device is not possible, this feature has minimal impact.

DNS caching

If Remote Logging Targets (Administration > System > Logging > Remote Logging Targets) are used with FQDN, DNS caching must be enabled. Set Time To Live value as 180 by using this command in the command line interface:

configure terminal
  service cache enable hosts ttl 180
Table 19. Configuration best practices for network devices

Attribute

Recommendation

RADIUS timeout ​

Recommended range is from 5 to 10 seconds. This range will help the endpoints to boot without causing the DHCP requests to expire and will also avoid latency between Cisco ISE and network devices.

RADIUS interim accounting

This option must be disabled or set to more than 24 hours for wireless and wired devices. This limits the interim accounts from the network devices when there is no significant change in the network. This also limits the incoming data to Cisco ISE, thereby reducing the RADIUS accounting updates and logs and allowing PSNs to effectively process the new incoming authentication requests.

If the ratio of authentication to accounting interim updates is more than 1:5, we strongly recommended that you check the network connectivity and the network device configuration for accounting updates. You must update the configuration to reduce the frequent interim updates from the network access devices.

If you have enabled automated turning off for the network devices in large scale, we recommend that you do this operation in batches. In addition, ensure that each batch does not include more than 500 devices. Otherwise, this operation might cause delay in incoming authentications.

Client exclusion ​

This configuration is applicable for wireless IOS devices. Set the value to 60 seconds.

Session timeout ​

Recommended value is more than 24 hours for both wired and wireless devices, unless your security policy dictates that you must perform authentication more frequently.

Inactivity timeout ​

Set the value to 300 seconds or more. This helps reduce the number of reauthentication requests.

RADIUS device sensor

If profiling is required, use the device sensor instead of other probes. While using the device sensor, other probes can be disabled for wireless devices. ​

RADIUS Dead Timer ​

Recommended range is from 10 to 15 minutes. This ensures that the RADIUS server marked down is not used for the specified interval.

Guest Anchoring

If WLAN is anchored, RADIUS accounting must be disabled in the WLAN settings on the anchor controller.

Polling interval for SNMP

We recommend that you set the SNMP Polling Interval value (Administration > Network Resources > Network Devices > Add > SNMP Settings) to 8 hours or higher to reduce performance impact due to large number of SNMP events. Setting a lower value might create large profiling events and impact system performance.

Single Connect mode

If you are using TACACS+ with TLS 1.3 protocol, enable the Administration > Network Resources > Network Devices > TACACS Authentication Settings > Enable Single Connect Mode option. This allows the events to be sent on an already established TLS channel, thereby improving the performance.

Cisco ISE hardware appliances

Cisco SNS hardware appliances support the Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) secure boot feature. This feature ensures that only a Cisco-signed Cisco ISE image can be installed on the Cisco SNS hardware appliances, and prevents the installation of any unsigned operating system even with physical access to the device.

Table 20. Specifications for Cisco SNS 3500/3600 series hardware appliances
Specifications Cisco SNS 3615 Cisco SNS 3595 Cisco SNS 3655 Cisco SNS 3695

Processor

Intel Xeon 2.10 GHz 4110

Intel Xeon 2.60 GHz E5-2640

Intel Xeon 2.10 GHz 4116

Intel Xeon 2.10 GHz 4116

Cores per Processor

8 Cores and 16 Threads

8 Cores and 16 Threads

12 Cores and 24 Threads

12 Cores and 24 Threads

Memory

32 GB (2x16 GB)

64 GB (4x16 GB)

96 GB (6x16 GB)

256 GB (8x32 GB)

Storage

1 x 600-GB 6 Gb SAS 10K RPM

4 x 600-GB 6 Gb SAS 10K RPM

4 x 600-GB 6 Gb SAS 10K RPM

8 x 600-GB 6 Gb SAS 10K RPM

Hardware RAID

Level 10

Cisco 12G SAS Modular RAID Controller

Level 10

Cisco 12G SAS Modular RAID Controller

Level 10

Cisco 12G SAS Modular RAID Controller

Network Interfaces

2 X 10 Gbase-T

4 x 1 GBase-T

6 x 1 GBase-T

2 X 10 Gbase-T

4 x 1 GBase-T

2 X 10 Gbase-T

4 x 1 GBase-T

Power Supplies

1 x 770W

2 x 770W

2 x 770W

2 x 770W

Table 21. Specifications for Cisco SNS 3700 series hardware appliances
Specifications Cisco SNS 3715 Cisco SNS 3755 Cisco SNS 3795

Processor

Intel Xeon 2.1 GHz 4310

Intel Xeon 2.3 GHz 4316

Intel Xeon 2.3 GHz 4316

Cores per processor

12 Cores and 24 Threads

20 Cores and 40 Threads

20 Cores and 40 Threads

Memory

32 GB

2 x 16GB

96 GB

6 x 16GB

256 GB

8 x 32GB

Storage

1

60012G SAS 10K RPM SFF HDD

Or

800 GB 2.5in Enterprise Performance 12G SAS SSD (3x endurance)

4

60012G SAS 10K RPM SFF HDD

Or

800 GB 2.5in Enterprise Performance 12G SAS SSD (3x endurance)

8

60012G SAS 10K RPM SFF HDD

Or

800 GB 2.5in Enterprise Performance 12G SAS SSD (3x endurance)

Hardware RAID

Level 0

Level 10

Cisco 12G SAS Modular RAID Controller

Level 10

Cisco 12G SAS Modular RAID Controller

Network interface

2 x 10Gbase-T

4 x 10GE SFP

2 x 10Gbase-T

4 x 10GE SFP

2 x 10Gbase-T

4 x 10GE SFP

Power supplies

1 x 1050W

2 x 1050W

2 x 1050W

TPM chip

Yes

Yes

Yes


Note


  • Cisco ISE Release 3.1 patch 6 and later and Cisco ISE release 3.2 patch 2 and later versions support Cisco SNS 3700 series appliances.

  • You cannot add additional hardware resources like memory, processor, or storage to a Cisco SNS hardware appliance.

  • Mixing SAS/SATA hard drives and SAS/SATA SSDs is not supported. You must use either SAS/SATA hard drives or SAS/SATA SSDs.

  • SSD offers improved performance in disk read/write operations and other Cisco ISE operations like boot, installation (up to 10% improvement), and upgrade database intensive tasks like backup and reports generation (up to 20% improvement). Note that the PSN performance for RADIUS and TACACS+ operations will remain the same as described in preceding sections.

  • Additional power supplies can be ordered separately for SNS 3615 and SNS 3715. For component part numbers, see the Cisco Secure Network Server Data Sheet.


Table 22. Specifications for Cisco SNS 3800 series hardware appliances

Specifications

Cisco SNS 3815

Cisco SNS 3855

Cisco SNS 3895

Processor

AMD 9115

2.6 GHz

AMD 9224

2.5 GHz

AMD 9224

2.5 GHz

Cores per processor

16 cores and 32 threads

24 cores and 48 threads

24 cores and 48 threads

Memory

64 GB

2 x 32 GB

128 GB

4 x 32 GB

256 GB

8 x 32 GB

Storage

1 960 GB NVMe

Or

960 GB SSD Self Encrypted Drive

Or

1.6 TB SSD Self Encrypted Drive FIPS Certified

1 for PSN only or 4 for PAN/MnT 960 GB NVMe

Or

1 for PSN only or 4 for PAN/MnT 960 GB SSD Self Encrypted Drive

Or

1 For PSN only or 4 for PAN/MnT 1.6 TB SSD Self Encrypted Drive FIPS Certified

8 960 GB NVMe

Or

960 GB SSD Self Encrypted Drive

Or

1.6 TB SSD Self Encrypted Drive FIPS Certified

Hardware Redundant Array of Independent Disks (RAID)

Level 0 Cisco 24G Tri-Mode M1 RAID Controller for SED and SED FIPS only

Level 0 for PSN only with NVMe Level 10 for PAN/MnT or when using SED or SEF-FIPS Cisco 24G Tri-Mode M1 RAID controller

Level 10 Cisco 24G Tri-Mode M1 RAID controller

Network interface

2 x 10Gbase-T

4 x 10GE SFP

2 x 10Gbase-T

4 x 10GE SFP

2 x 10Gbase-T

4 x 10GE SFP

Power supplies

1 or 2 x 1200 W

2 x 1200 W

2 x 1200 W

Trusted Platform Module (TPM) chip

Yes

Yes

Yes


Note


  • Cisco SNS 3800 series appliances are supported from Cisco ISE release 3.3 patch 7 onwards.

  • You cannot add additional hardware resources like memory, processor, or storage to a Cisco SNS hardware appliance.

  • NVMe offers improved performance in disk read/write operations and other Cisco ISE operations like boot, installation (up to 10% improvement), and upgrade database intensive tasks like backup and reports generation (up to 20% improvement). Note that the PSN performance for RADIUS and TACACS+ operations will remain the same as described in preceding sections.

  • For component part numbers, see the Cisco Secure Network Server Data Sheet.


Cisco ISE virtual machine and cloud platforms

Cisco ISE can be installed on VMware servers, KVM hypervisors, Hyper-V (Windows Server and Azure Stack HCI), and Nutanix AHV. To achieve performance and scalability comparable to Cisco ISE hardware appliances, virtual machines must be allocated system resources equivalent to the Cisco SNS appliances.

It is recommended that you reserve CPU and memory resources that match the resource allocation. Failure to do so may significantly impact Cisco ISE performance and stability.

For a VM deployment, the number of cores is twice the number of cores in a physical appliance due to hyperthreading. For example, in case of a small network deployment, allocate 16 vCPU cores to meet the CPU specification of SNS 3615, which has 8 CPU cores or 16 threads.

Deploy dedicated VM resources and do not share or oversubscribe resources across multiple guest VMs.

Cisco ISE is now available from the cloud, enabling you to scale your Cisco ISE deployments quickly and easily to meet changing business needs.

Cisco ISE is available as an Infrastructure as Code solution, helping you to rapidly deploy network accesses and control services anywhere.

Extend the Cisco ISE policies in your home network to new remote deployments securely through Amazon Web Services (AWS), Azure Cloud Services, or Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI). AWS supports Cisco ISE release 3.1 and later releases.

OCI and Azure Cloud support is available from Cisco ISE release 3.2 and later releases.

See Deploy Cisco ISE Natively on Cloud Platforms and respective cloud documentations for resource specifications of supported instances.

This table describes matrix of VM specification, cloud instances to their equivalent Cisco SNS appliances.

Table 23. Specifications for Cisco ISE VM and cloud instances
Models Cisco SNS 3615 Cisco SNS 3595 Cisco SNS 3655 Cisco SNS 3695 Cisco SNS 3715 Cisco SNS 3755 Cisco SNS 3795

VM Specification

16vCPU

32 GB

16vCPU

64 GB

24vCPU

96 GB

24vCPU

256 GB

24vCPU

32GB

40vCPU

96GB

40vCPU

256GB

AWS

c5.4xlarge*

m5.4xlarge

c5.9xlarge*

m5.8xlarge

m5.16xlarge

c5.9xlarge*

m5.8xlarge

m5.16xlarge

c7i.4xlarge***

m7i.8xlarge***

m7i.16xlarge***

m7i.8xlarge***

m7i.16xlarge***

Azure

Standard_F16s_v2*

Standard_D16s_v4

Standard_F32s_v2*

Standard_D32s_v4

Standard_D64s_v4

Standard_F32s_v2*

Standard_D32s_v4

Standard_D64s_v4

OCI

Optimized3.Flex* (8 OCPU** and 32 GB)

Standard3.Flex (8 OCPU and 64 GB)

Optimized3.Flex (16 OCPU and 64 GB)*

Standard3.Flex (16 OCPU and 128 GB)

Standard3.Flex (16 OCPU and 256 GB)

Optimized3.Flex (16 OCPU and 64 GB)*

Standard3.Flex (16 OCPU and 128 GB)

Standard3.Flex (32 OCPU and 256 GB)

*This instance is compute-optimized and provides better performance compared to the general purpose instances.

**In OCI, you choose CPU in terms of Oracle CPU (OCPU). Each OCPU provides CPU capacity equal to one physical core of an Intel Xeon processor with hyper-threading enabled. Each OCPU equals two hardware execution threads known as vCPUs.

***Cisco ISE release 3.5 and later supports M7i and C7i instance types on AWS.


Note


  • There is no equivalent cloud profile for Cisco SNS 3815, Cisco SNS 3855, and Cisco SNS 3895.

  • Cisco SNS 3595 and its equivalent cloud instances are supported only for Cisco ISE 3.2 and earlier releases.

  • There is no equivalent cloud profile for Cisco SNS 3755. We recommend that you use the cloud instances that are specified for Cisco SNS 3795.


Extra Small form factor for Cisco ISE VM and cloud instances

Extra Small VM specification is available only on virtualization platforms such as VMware, KVM, Hyper-V, Nutanix AHV hypervisors, and Cloud instances.

This form factor is not supported for SNS appliances.

Table 24. Extra Small form factor for Cisco ISE VM and cloud instances

Virtual Machines

Specifications

VM

8 vCPU 32GB RAM

AWS

m5.2xlarge

m7i.2xlarge

Azure

Standard_D8s_v4

OCI

Standard3.Flex (4 OCPU and 32 GB)

Extra Small form factor supports these two deployment types:

  • PSNLite: The node can be deployed as a dedicated PSN persona in a deployment supporting up to 500,000 sessions.

    Performance for RADIUS and TACACS+ authentication is around 50 percent of that of Cisco SNS 3615. For example, if the RADIUS authentication rate of Cisco SNS 3615 for PEAP-MSCHAP2 with internal user database is 150, this value will be 75 (50% of 150) for the PSNLite.

  • ISELite: The node can be deployed as a standalone Cisco ISE node. It is not recommended to use ISELite for Small (HA) deployments.

    ISELite is optimized to run only for small office scenario supporting up to a maximum of 1000 concurrently active endpoints with an optimal RADIUS performance at 50 TPS.

    ISELite is recommended only for RADIUS or TACACS+ traffic. It is not recommended to enable advanced services like SXP, PassiveID, pxGrid Direct, pxGrid Cloud, TC-NAC, Log Analytics, and Cisco AI Analytics on an ISELite node.

    Ensure that the Log Analytics option (under Operations > System 360) is disabled in the ISELite node.

Table 25. Extra Small form factor supported deployment types
Name Deployment type Storage Maximum concurrent active sessions Notes
PSNLite Dedicated PSN only 300 GB 12000 Supported from Cisco ISE 3.2 onwards
ISELite Standalone Cisco ISE node 600 GB 1000 Supported from Cisco ISE 3.4 onwards